More Tune Method Talk...

[beck]

Your system Markiteight is an example of what can be achieved by being curious and unconventional.

An enjoyable and very low cost hifi solution that will satisfy many I am sure. :-)

[Defender]

the same absolutely goes for your system beck - impressive what is achievable when taking care of the right things and not just believing the big dollar industry

[Spannko]

Thinking even more about this, I think I’ve conflated inharmonicity and pitch. Inharmonicity is the measurable variance from a theoretical ideal and is what gives instruments their timbre. Pitch is a subjective impression of the notes being played on instruments, even when their timbre differs, and is all that really matters. I won’t mention inharmonicity again. Ever.

[beck]

Thinking even more about this, I think I’ve conflated inharmonicity and pitch. Inharmonicity is the measurable variance from a theoretical ideal and is what gives instruments their timbre. Pitch is a subjective impression of the notes being played on instruments, even when their timbre differs, and is all that really matters. I won’t mention inharmonicity again. Ever.

That is like me saying I will not post anything on this forum ever again! ;-)

[Spannko]

Oh, all right then. Just occasionally!

[ThomasOK]

Listen at 32.50. Is that what we seek?

https://youtu.be/hqz4SQCKv_o

Listening to that clip made me wonder how a sub-$2000 system built using the tune method compares to a system costing in excess of one million(!!!) dollars built using traditional audiophile values. Let's find out:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vdx6uq02mkrs9 ... 5.MOV?dl=0

This is, of course, posted purely for giggles. There are too many variables to make any meaningful comparisons, but I thought it would be fun to see how two systems with a 500x cost gradient, and very different philosophies, compare.

:-)

[Arjen]

Think I’m a little drowned and lost in this discussion. Has Charlies starting question been answered by now?

[Charlie1]

Not sure it was much of a question in the end - just a comment about my experience to date.

[Spannko]

Think I’m a little drowned and lost in this discussion. Has Charlies starting question been answered by now?

Confucius, he say “There are no answers, only better questions”

[Sopper]

Moved from the Playground for Practical Listening Exercises thread.

-Moderator

Thanks to everyone. I was a little sure that the soldered Deltrons would be recognized. A are the Deltrons.

It should be noted that the screwed banana plugs are available per set (4 pieces) for EUR 6.90. See link below. They are also available as rhodium-plated OFC copper.

The torque for securing the cable was quite low, but I don't trust them to be able to apply any more pressure. Soldering these additionally is another option and I will do that later.

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/banana-p ... 17373.html

Did you use ferrules?

[Hermann]

Good question, no, not used. Since this is a test, subsequent soldering on Deltrons would be very difficult. Perhaps with the old Deltrons, which had a larger contact surface than the current ones. Also, wire end ferrules would add another medium to the signal path, which I wanted to avoid.

On the other hand, I had considered at least soldering the ends, but I decided against it because I assume the contact surface would be smaller than if they were screwed together without soldering.

[Sopper]

Cold joint screw fix and stranded wire needs perfect crimped ferrules to perform well
Soldering does off course not need ferrules; that’s even bad

[lejonklou]

Good question, no, not used. Since this is a test, subsequent soldering on Deltrons would be very difficult. Perhaps with the old Deltrons, which had a larger contact surface than the current ones. Also, wire end ferrules would add another medium to the signal path, which I wanted to avoid.

On the other hand, I had considered at least soldering the ends, but I decided against it because I assume the contact surface would be smaller than if they were screwed together without soldering.

Untested theories can be deceptive! I find patterns more reliable.

Whenever I need to test some unknown parameter there is a need to reduce the number of combinations. The unlikely candidates are excluded in order to make the test practicable. Often I will have a gut feeling of which end of the spectrum to exclude.

And then it becomes critical to ask “why do I want to exclude that end from the tests?” Often it’s because I have some theory, for instance “less manipulation of the signal must be better”. Now, is that theory based on actual results in this specific situation? Have those results aligned themselves in a pattern? Then it might be wise to consider that pattern.

But sometimes there is no pattern of practical results the gut theory stems from. I find myself assuming things I actually don’t know much about.

Two examples:
1. Long ago I found that metal platings on connectors sound different in a way that forms a pattern. Silver sounds a particular way (not too good), nickel another (decent but not great), tin clearly better and gold also good but with a different character. In my mind a subconscious theory formed that as the platings all seemed to add a sonic character, no plating must have no character and be preferable. When I later tested that in practice, I found that no plating often sounds even worse.

2. A HiFi retailer developed the idea that when torquing fasteners, the ideal was that the torques should gradually fall from high to low in a given direction of the mechanical structure. That saved him the trouble of listening to what actually happened at each fastener. Or at least drastically reduced the number of tests required. The only problem is that the theory is plain wrong.

In hindsight, I have sometimes wasted time on trying to form a theory when I should have run more tests and listened to the results. And I have often formed subconscious theories of how things work that have guided me wrong. Note to self is: Notice the patterns, confirm with tests when extrapolating, pay attention to the theories that form and subconsciously steer my thinking.

[Hermann]

Thank you for your detailed description. I was certainly following a unfounded pattern, at least in the sense that I did not evaluate it. Only by interrupting my own patterns, which are sometimes based on the experiences of others, was I able to restore the tonal balance of my system in my current living space. In all the other rooms it simply played, regardless of how or where they were. This requires a certain openness to one's own assumptions, which in turn leads to trial and error.

The isobarik in my living space is the best example, as I followed the experience of others in relation to - the bricks need a solid wall in the background - and found out too late that this is completely wrong. Just as wrong as back in the 80s music systems were put together according to a points system from magazines.

Questioning common assumptions is one of the important features of achieving the goal, because this means that your own thinking and actions are required and in the foreground.

In relation to this test, it was/is not important enough for me to exploit all the possibilities, because there are other projects waiting that I would like to realize with the small system. For example, I have modified my favorite power strip in various ways and will soon post some music recordings. One remains original, another is fitted with a Naim power cable and two of the four have been modified so that the permanently mounted cable has been replaced by a C14 socket so that different cables can be tested. In the fourth, the brass rails have been replaced by copper cables.

During these tests, I noticed that the power cable of the Linn DS streamer is wired differently than that of your products. Maybe it is not a Linn cable, I don't know.

[Sopper]

While it is indeed impossible to test all variables in practice, one should be aware not to follow blindly…
Because there Is no such thing as one truth in music reproduction in a home environment.

I have always avoided using silver plated plugs because it’s on the low end of Fredrik’s hierarchy, like he stated again as example in the post above. And I am aware of Fredriks bat-like hearing ability (otherwise you can’t make those amazing Lejonklou gear).

But with my own selfmade cables I went all open minded and found a silverplated copper plug with low mass contacts to be the best. It complements the wire which is solid core silver filled copper (90% copper 10% silver).
I tried tinned and gold plated first > first and second in Fredriks hierarchy > they were good, but the silver plated is in a total different league; everything “snaps” into place all of a sudden.

To sum up; it’s good to follow best practice of people with lots of genuine experience in the field.
Usually can’t go wrong with this strategy
But be open minded and challenge yourself to test things in your own set en room; it might bring surprising good results

[Spannko]

This requires a certain openness to one's own assumptions, which in turn leads to trial and error.

For me, this is THE most important step in order to advance our knowledge of what makes a system sound musical.

[matthias]

Cold joint screw fix and stranded wire needs perfect crimped ferrules to perform well

Another opinion:
https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/audiop ... r-tinning/

[Sopper]

Cold joint screw fix and stranded wire needs perfect crimped ferrules to perform well

Another opinion:
https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/audiop ... r-tinning/

I have learned not to take mister Punter too serious
I have read a lot of his articles and I disagree with a lot of his opinions and experiences
An average screw fix on stranded wires without the use of ferrules leads to several, if not half, strands making no contact or insufficient contact. In my experience this leads to worse sound.

There is one truth: best practice and experiment and trust your own ears

[matthias]

An average screw fix on stranded wires without the use of ferrules leads to several, if not half, strands making no contact or insufficient contact. In my experience this leads to worse sound.

It depends.
For example I changed the mains connectors of my devices to Neutrik Powercon 32A. They make a perfect fit with screws and plates underneath which compress all stranded wires perfectly.

[Sopper]

An average screw fix on stranded wires without the use of ferrules leads to several, if not half, strands making no contact or insufficient contact. In my experience this leads to worse sound.

It depends.
For example I changed the mains connectors of my devices to Neutrik Powercon 32A. They make a perfect fit with screws and plates underneath which compress all stranded wires perfectly.

Yeah, they have a system to secure all wires in a tight fit
The banana plug Hermann showed, definitely not…

[matthias]

Yeah, they have a system to secure all wires in a tight fit
The banana plug Hermann showed, definitely not…

So we have to be careful with absolute statements.
For my 3677s for example I made a fork from the speaker cables themselves so no need for other materials for the connection.

[FairPlayMotty]

I have learned not to take mister Punter too serious

You can take this guy seriously. This video challenged my preconceptions on speaker cables. There is a similar video on power cables.

https://youtu.be/kR12Ttuxobs?si=5QxO8aecxhUZ9CXD

Trusting your ears is all well and good. Gene's test equipment picks up differences between cables that the ear cannot hear.

The placebo effect has fooled me many times with speaker cables.

[lejonklou]

Sigh. Basic physics that doesn’t in any way help us with what we’re interested in on this forum: Maximising our enjoyment of music reproduction.

If you have trouble hearing differences between cables, learn the Tune Method.

If you are being tricked by placebo effects, arrange blind tests. Arrange them so that they help you detect differences (by allowing you to listen to what you want, for as long as you want, at the volume you want and switch back and forth at your will), not so that they aim to fool you and thereby proving that you are easily manipulated (which you will be in such conditions).

[markiteight]

You can take this guy seriously.

Really? We can? I didn't see anywhere in that video where he correlated what he was measuring to the musical performance of the items being measured. It's our ears that will be doing the listening, not his test gear.

Gene's test equipment picks up differences between cables that the ear cannot hear.

And our ears can easily pick up differences his equipment will never detect.

He did have one good thing to say. It took until almost the end of the video, but he does implore the viewer to trust their ears and listen. Doing so with the tune method virtually eliminates any placebo effect and gives reliable, consistent, repeatable results at a resolution far beyond the capabilities of any measuring equipment.

Measurements have their place in electronics design. Evaluating a product's musical performance isn't one of them.

[Spannko]

Even the BBC (who liked to understand their designs from a scientific perspective) said that “Where theory and practice disagree, then theory has always been assumed to be wrong”