Hermanns System

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lejonklou
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

I'm ordering a pick-up of Hermann's Sagatun Mono for a return to my lab. I believe I know what the problem is.

I have only done a handful of Sagatun 1.7 upgrades so far. The procedure consists of several details, such as changes to the power supplies (which take a long time to break in), new screws and cable clips and a new chassis ground. Those are all well tested and proven over time.

There is one detail in how the upgrade is made, however, that I realized differs from how it was done in the original assembly in Estonia a decade ago: The torque of the pillars below the main board. This could seem like a trivial detail, but in fact it's quite important.

The pillars can be tightened from the outside or from the inside. This results in two different torques, although the setting on the tool is the same. The original value of 0.6 Nm + 3 steps, established almost exactly ten years ago, was done from the outside. This results in a lower torque on the pillars. When I made the first few 1.7 upgrades, I tightened the pillars from the inside during reassembly. This results in a higher torque on the pillars.

When I, thanks to Hermann's sharing of his initial impressions, realized I had reassembled in a different way, I compared the two settings by ear. And in fact they both have something good musically, so I went back and forth a couple of times before I settled on the original torque (from the outside, which is lower). I also tried various torques in between the two, but found them all uninspiring. So apparently I had hit two peaks in musical performance; one the original value and one higher up, which gives more precision and detail, but which I also feel gets a little tiresome after a while. I prefer the flow and grace of the original torque.

I know exactly which Sagatun's I've torqued the original way and which I've torqued the new way, so rest assured I'm going to clear this up (yours are done the original way, Sopper). But let's wait to hear what Hermann's got to say when I've adjusted his pair. The electronic components should be well run in by the time he gets them back and have had a good listen.

I can't overstate how thankful I am to have customers with such sensitive ears and high expectations. You continue to raise the bar for everyone's benefit. Thanks in particular to Hermann, for sharing his intense experiences and doubts with me.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Nota bene: This could all be due to something entirely different being wrong with Hermann’s SM.

But from Hermann’s detailed descriptions, his highly sensitive Isobarik-on-Mana system and my own listening tests, I strongly suspect the higher torque below the main board.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Sopper »

Thanks for clearing that up Fredrik
I’m still amazed such tiny details can have such impact and can heard.
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
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Hermann
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

After some very interesting experiences, the system works to our complete satisfaction. What happened? The upgrade came with a torque setting that left us speechless. The impressions are described above and remain. Only a tonal exaggeration in our room overshadowed the enjoyment during the warm-up period. My assumption that the reason was the upgrade itself turned out to be a fallacy, as the cause was a change in the torque of the screws on the boards that are accessible underneath the cases. Fredrik recommended a different setting. At the time, I was very skeptical that such a change could achieve its goal. Still, he was right.

It is fascinating how sensitive such a closed and perfectly developed device leaves a completely different listening impression by changing a few screws. The recommended torque of the sixteen screws was the solution and once again left me listening in amazement. Not only that, the system is now sensitive enough that I could find the optimal point myself. To do this, the screws on both devices would have to be adjusted under signal, the LP12 would have to be removed for a short time and some of the plugs would have to be moved, which I try to avoid in my setup. Therefore, this is currently not an issue. Strictly speaking, we are now listening to the upgrade for the first time without any annoying overshadowing and, much to our delight, it turned out to be a good 12 hour session yesterday.

Maybe one more thing about this upgrade. It takes a long time to play in. It also takes some time after power off and on, in my case about 2 hours, until the preamplifier finds the peace again to play music to our liking.

Will there be another recording in this regard? No, because just as the difference between AVM and Amplifi router could not be heard in the recording, it will not be heard in further recordings here either. I don't know the reason. But maybe another user will find better ways to show this, which would make me very happy.

I rate the upgrade very high and would have to expand the previously posted scale, because this is above the upgrade Kandid » Ekstatic or AVM » Amplifi Router. I had expressed my concerns to Fredrik about the enormous transparency and feared that it would veer too analytically. Since the advantages of the upgrade were just overshadowed, the concerns were put aside, because this enables the connection to the musical microcosm mentioned above, which makes up a large part of the upgrade. It's a piece of synergy with the Tundra Monos 3.0, which represents the most important step towards musical fulfillment.

Once again, my thanks go to Fredrik and Marco from Hexagon Audio, as they looked together for solutions, which have now been found.
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Tony Tune-age
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Tony Tune-age »

That's good news Hermann, the mystery is solved...congratulations! I've learned how important torque values really are in audio components. From cartridges to tonearms, preamps to speakers, and everything in between they do make a noticeable difference! Some people have a hard time processing the concept, until they can hear for themselves.

Cheers!
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Hermann
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thanks Tony

It became clear to me while working on the LP12 many years ago and still on the speaker drivers that torque settings significantly improve the sound. But what surprises me is how subtle such a small change in torque appears. Obviously, these changes are better heard when the music system itself is already playing at a higher level.

I am sure that knowledge about music will expand significantly in the coming days.

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Re: Hermanns System

Post by springwood64 »

Thanks for sharing your experience Hermann, and great to hear that you and Fredrik were able to get direct to the root cause.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by ThomasOK »

Thanks for the comprehensive reports. Glad everything is sorted out. I know how hard Fredrik worked to sort this all out and the dedication really shows.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thanks everyone for the comments.

I'll admit, I was skeptical about his advice. If my system doesn't play in the right way, my emotions don't play along either or swing to the other side when it sounds perfect. Fredrik did an excellent job, on the one hand with the upgrade, but also in responding to my specific needs. It is astonishing and deserves respect how accurately his tip solved the problem.

Regarding your Linn Silver cable test Tom, I hope I don't have to worry too much about my Linn Silver.
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