I think that’s taking what I said a bit far!
No!
Musicality isn’t a binary concept, it exists on a continuum. Both sources and speakers will have a degree of musicality.
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I think that’s taking what I said a bit far!
No!
Musicality isn’t a binary concept, it exists on a continuum. Both sources and speakers will have a degree of musicality.
It certainly wasn’t a sarcastic question Lego. Sorry if it came over that way. I’m reasonably familiar with waterfalls and have generated my own with REW on many occasions. I’ve generally understood them to pictorially describe how energy decays over time wrt frequency. I thought you were suggesting that waterfalls showed the initial reaction to the transient, which may be possible since I believe the data is usually recorded, but I’ve not seen it used in that way.Lego wrote: ↑2023-04-28 21:52 I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic question or not Spannko as what I am talking about is one of the main purposes of the waterfall measurement .It's how a speaker handles short sharp tones.My bad, I presumed the fact you gave waterfalls as an example that you had came across them .Please expand your insight .
I wouldn’t say I don’t like the 308’s. I just find them ok with the equipment I have at hand and I’m not really interested in taking it any further.
You won’t be getting university level education from me, that’s for sure! Everything I think I know is self taught, and everything I say comes from direct experience or I’ll quote the source.
Simply by listening to a wide range of drive units. Their tune playing abilities are easy to hear. Interestingly, whilst a drive units sound changes when placed in an enclosure, it’s musicality still shines through.
What I mean is manufacturers generally produce a range of drive units with different electrical and mechanical properties to suit a wide range of enclosure sizes and designs specifically for the diy market.LinnGary wrote: ↑2023-04-28 23:27 Also, you say drive units are matched for enclosure matching at the design stage. Lord knows I'm not the brightest cog. But I figures most drive units are OEM. So at the time of the design do the makers knows what enclosures they're going into?
I'll kick back & enjoy my coffee.
With the only preamp I had to hand, they weren’t amazing and they weren’t bad. They were somewhere in between. I do think though, for a couple of hundred pounds, they’re very good value for money.
Yep, that’s just about what a comparison boils down to. What’s more tuneful, A or B?
The only book I’ve read is How to Bluff Your Way in Loudspeaker Design.LinnGary wrote: ↑2023-04-29 00:24 Sorry brother Spannko, I thought from your timbre that you is an expert in loudspeakers.
Where did you pick up your learning bro? Any university level books you can recommend fo me to peruse?
My understanding of the Klippel machine is that it finds any problems with drive units without any need for a reference unit.
On drive units what you said was that makers have enclosures in mind before they makes the drive units. You changed yo mind brother?
I refer the gentleman to my previous answers!LinnGary wrote: ↑2023-04-29 00:35 So brother were the 308s musical or not? If not why not?
They were somewhere in between what?
You see my hardship here is yo the musicality main cat on here brother. Yo held andy2's feet to the fire & that cat been at Linn for 40 years.
If the boss of the operation and others think they're as musical as I does, are you suggesting musicality is subjective brother?
You’re just trolling now.LinnGary wrote: ↑2023-04-29 00:54 Are you avoiding my questions brother?
Is the 308 a musical speaker? It's a yes/no question by good ol TuneDem or the Tune Method? If yo didn't find them musical why not?
Most importantly do you think musicality is subjective brother?
The boss of this operation sho don't think so.
What I have said is that the choice of speakers is the most personal of all choices in HiFi.
I've used rew and Dirac live out of curiosity.Spannko wrote: ↑2023-04-28 23:52It certainly wasn’t a sarcastic question Lego. Sorry if it came over that way. I’m reasonably familiar with waterfalls and have generated my own with REW on many occasions. I’ve generally understood them to pictorially describe how energy decays over time wrt frequency. I thought you were suggesting that waterfalls showed the initial reaction to the transient, which may be possible since I believe the data is usually recorded, but I’ve not seen it used in that way.Lego wrote: ↑2023-04-28 21:52 I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic question or not Spannko as what I am talking about is one of the main purposes of the waterfall measurement .It's how a speaker handles short sharp tones.My bad, I presumed the fact you gave waterfalls as an example that you had came across them .Please expand your insight .
The better alternative to having a speaker with walls that vibrate in a "musical" way is to have a speaker with walls that vibrate in a less audible way. So that the vibrations are too buried in the mix to be audible most (or even all) of the time.Spannko wrote: ↑2023-04-28 06:52I’m not sure tbh. Personally, I’d like to think that a genuinely good loudspeaker should sound good with all sources, but to elevate the performance from good to excellent could require an element of “systems” design, where all components are optimised to work with each other symbiotically.
Yes, this certainly makes sense, but no one has ever managed to design a good loudspeaker without a crossover. It seems that unfiltered driver resonance is more harmful to the music than the effect of a well designed crossover. Who knows, with advancements in driver technology, one day this may be possiblelindsayt wrote: ↑2023-04-28 03:09
Crossovers. There's a school of thought, that makes sense to me, that no crossover is the best crossover, if you can get away with no crossover. And that a first order crossover is the next best after that. It's the less is more approach to crossovers. Some sets of drivers lend themselves better to no crossover or a first order crossover than others.Unfortunately, the alternative is having a loudspeaker with walls vibrating in an unmusical way! The BBC thought that if it was possible to get enclosure vibrations roughly 30dB below the driver output they shouldn’t be audible. They discovered that increasing wall thickness made enclosure vibrations more audible, hence their damped thin wall approach. However, the BBC didn’t evaluate the effect of enclosure mass on a speakers tune playing ability, so for our purposes their research is only something to be kept in mind and not necessarily followed.
This is my experience too, but cabinets higher in the hierarchy than drivers? Personally, I see a cabinet as being the support act, not the leading lady!
What I have found over the years from conducting numerous listening tests is that sometimes you come across someone that has a large amount of pre-existing bias as well as a lack of integrity when listening. So that they will spout a load of nonsense about the relative merits of the equipment. These people tend to be very much in the minority.LinnGary wrote: ↑2023-04-28 22:05 1 aspect of this forum drew me in the way my JBL308P engage me. This discussion of speaker musicality baffles me in 1 sense.
Lots of y'all love the 308P, others do not.
Lots of y'all love the Briks, others do not.
Lots of y'all love the Kans, others do not.
Some of y'all love other Linn speakers, others do not.
@Spannko, brother can you tell me why you don't like the 308? You sure have the knowledge to inform me of where I might be confused. You appear to be close to the boss here but y'all seem at loggerheads with the 308s.
Yes, this certainly makes sense. I’ve just built 3 enclosures with identical internal dimensions but with 9, 12, 15mm walls to try and understand just how thick/braced/damped an enclosure needs to be achieve this.
Yes, I absolutely agree!
Floyd E. Toole and his teammates from JBL/Harman has written a highly recommended book on sound reproduction: loudspeakers and rooms https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduct ... b_image_bk. It doesn’t deal with speakers musicality as such, but if you think a loudspeakers never can be musical on its own bar only make an as faithful as possible reproduction of the inherent musicality in the recording, then I say it is a really ear opening read.
We're getting to a spin-off topic of a spin-off topic.LinnGary wrote: ↑2023-04-30 13:48 Thx brother Matss!
Letivin is on route to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEZkz4Li-0M
1st few mins deals with bias. Mr. Sean Olive is compelling.
Agree to everything.Spannko wrote: ↑2023-04-27 23:46 What makes a loudspeaker musical?
Drive units definitely have their own innate musicality. For example, one of the reasons Kans and Isobarik’s worked so well is because the B110 is a very musical bass/mid unit. However, a drivers musicality can be tempered if it’s not loaded correctly (acoustically) by the enclosure.
In addition to loading the bass unit acoustically, the enclosure has the potential to obscure the musicality of the drive unit due to how it’s constructed. I’ve built about half a dozen enclosures of varying shapes and wall thicknesses (with the same internal volume) and they all sound different from one another, particularly from a musical perspective. At this moment in time I wouldn’t like to speculate on the exact reasons why. I’ve just built three additional enclosures which are identical to my current favourite, with the exception that the wall thicknesses vary. After listening to them, things might be a bit clearer.
Crossover components and circuit topology also has a very big effect on a loudspeaker’s musicality.
If there’s a hierarchy, I’d probably put crossover first, followed by drivers, then enclosure, simply because of source first theory. Get the x/o wrong and it doesn’t matter how good the drivers and enclosure are, it’ll never sound musical. However, a so-so driver can’t be compensated for by a good x/o either. Everything is important, so I’d guess at something like x/o (41%), drivers (39%) and enclosure (20%). This may change as I learn more.
Its might also be a challenge to realise that F. Toole isnt right about many things. How music works, ( its ordered frequencies ), why two loudspeakers in a room shouldnt measure flat , how to use tunemethod etc .